The Out of Church Christians

9/4/2010

I started to write an article and include testimonies from some of the "out of church Christians" that I know, but then I remembered that Andrew Strom compiled an ebook in 2003, which included 30-40 pages of email testimonies along with some of Andrew's commentary. I felt that it was important for believers to understand some of the issues that not only divide the church, but render it powerless and irrelevant (according to some secular polls. Click on the link shown below to download the e-book.
Blessings to all, Grover

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4 Comments

Miller

9/4/2010 12:33:24 pm

Grover,

please accept this letter as conversational and not in any way as correction or anger or anything like it! i just had some thoughts i wanted to share... i was reading through this letter and when i came across this quote it gave me pause.

Hmmmm. All I know is this: The concept of going through a 'Wilderness' just before entering the 'Promised Land' is totally Scriptural. In fact, it is right through the Bible. Even Jesus went through such a wilderness time.

But it is not possible to stay "alone" forever. Some day, if these people are going to be part of a new move of God's Spirit, they are going to have to come out of their wilderness and become part of the "BODY" that Jesus brings together - the 'new wineskin' that will come with this new move of God. Otherwise they could miss out. That is the great danger.

i bear the Mr. Strom no ill will whatsoever, from what i read his heart is good, but there are a couple of assumptions he seems to make that i believe are fundamentally flawed.

first is this, if we aren't in a "church" we are "alone". i haven't been in a "church" since 2000 except for one very painful year in '03-'04. i probably felt more alone in that year than any other. but i never felt alone during any of the rest of that time... this letter bears witness to that truth.

second is that the "new move of God" will happen "someday". i believe the phenomenon he is describing is the "new" move of God. just prior to this statement he says "what is happening could be a 'move of God'" but it appears to me that he believes it is only the beginning and that no move of God will be complete until we are all back in the churches. Jesus tells the woman at the well "a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem... a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." this is the phenomenon being described.

The final assumption i see is that we aren't really a part of the bride of Christ as long as we aren't a part of the "BODY"... which seems to be code for "church". the apostle John seems to indicate the church is those who are walking in the light as Jesus is in the light. from what i read of the testimonies he published here, many seem to think the Light has gone out of our "churches" and have therefore left them to find it and walk in it. the thing is, as he indicates, many of the "leavers" are former leaders in the "churches" they left... and if anyone would know i'd think it would be them.

anyway, i bear Andrew no ill will, and i'm glad he's thinking and writing about this phenomenon. i just got hung up on his words here and thought them very revealing regarding the deeply held beliefs many "churched" people have.

what do you think?

peace
--
"The child of God is not conscious of the will of God because he is the will of God."

miller

Grover

9/4/2010 12:35:05 pm

Hey, Miller,
What do I think? First, I think that I agree with everything you pointed out. I appreciate Andrew's heart and ministry, but he thinks "church" is going to be restored, after it repents and is revived, perhaps in a different form---my take is that it cannot be saved in its present form at all, but must be dismantled (by the Lord) and then be built on a proper foundation. But a lot rests on the definition of "church." If "church" is a building or institution, then it can be repaired or remodeled, but if "church" is a people, then it must be transformed by the power of God. This includes moving away from our traditions (remember what Jesus said about the traditions of men?) and learning to walk by HIS Spirit.

I thought the emails were excellent---just allowing the hearts of the people to be expressed. That spoke more to me than Andrew's conclusions. I did send this out to a number of friends who are pastors in the trad/church. I pray with several of them weekly and hear the cries of THEIR hearts as they try to be true servants of God in a system that often stifles and misrepresents God to the world and believers. They are going to have to make some very costly decisions in the days to come and I hope they (and we) can hear and be encouraged by what the Lord is saying in all this.

I think that folks in the "going" church and those of us in the "being" realm ALL need Godly vision, repentance and humility in order to move away from our present paradigms and closer to God and each other. It's really not about trad/church, home church or out of church---it's about BEING JESUS'S body, however, wherever, whenever we're called. I've been frustrated for years at how little or how slow this process seems. But the Lord showed me that worldly frustration doesn't work righteousness---that I was to "set the compass" and move my life in the right direction---and not to worry about the results.

I think the "wilderness walk" is part of the detox that Christians need to go through. When Edith and I came out of the traditional church, we found that we were addicted to it. We went throught the same detox and withdrawal process that heroine addicts go through (at least the emotional part.) While traditional folks may think that we're still in the wilderness, I feel it's one of the most fruitful times in our spiritual lives. We (Edith and I) have more and better fellowship now than we ever had in the trad realm. And we also have very strong spiritual relationships with many that are still in the trad church. We ARE the body of Christ. It isn't seperated, denominated, or isolated by traditions of men. It can have disagreements and conflicts, but it can't have a church split! It's an organism---a living entity that represents Jesus in the earth. You can't go to IT (church) when you ARE the church (ekklesia.)

One of my observations is that many (maybe most) Christians don't own what they say they believe. They know the answers to questions that someone told them, but don't know what they really believe or why they believe it. One of the reasons I chose Andrew's diatribe is that it challenges both sides of the church issue and causes folks to wrestle with some of the real stuff.

Thanks, Miller for your very astute comments. I'm looking forward to continued fellowship with you.

Blessings,
Grover

Vonni

9/4/2010 12:36:39 pm

AMEN! Thank you two for putting my mind on paper. I recently took a dear, elderly brother-in-Christ to task for telling me that another brother had "left the Church". I admonished him that, "No, he didn't leave the church. Jesus added him to the church and he was still serving the Lord, just in a different location with a different group." VR

Mark Case

9/4/2010 12:38:55 pm

Dear Scattered Sheep,

While we await the timing of God through Jesus Christ in building His church in direct fulfillment to His promise, "I will build My church." (Matt. 16:18) let us seek not only to communicate from a distance, but also to literally gather in His name. If we are not careful we can substitute what is good, for the very best. Thank God for the communicating tools that we have today - especially in absence of the gatherings that we know He wants to build, and that He SHALL build; but let us gather, still.

Our "gathering" experiences of the past have not always been good. I speak of churches and forms and institutions and so-forth, as we have learned them; but after some recovery time (detoxing is a good term), we should seek to gather again.

The prophet Jeremiah had a call that included "to plant" again. Yes. He was called to "uproot" and to "tear down," but also to "build" and "to plant." (Bear in mind that his call to uproot and to tear down was not something of the flesh, but of the Spirit - so should ours be, to those of us who have that call.)

My conviction is that, in order for the process to be healthy, and continuing, we should:
1. recognize our religiousness and repent until we are freed (submit to time for detox and discovery by the Spirit - sometimes this takes years - but not always)
2. point out those learned weaknesses about our understanding of "church" and Christianity and seek to help others realize them so that they may also be set free
3. continue in discovery through the Word and prayer and a true Spirit-walk while communicating and expounding on freshly revealed truths with others
4. come together again as a body (this is a work of faith that is begun by simply gathering preferably with God-called leaders {not man-lords}, praying, hearing the Word of Truth, worshiping, fellowshipping, permitting the Spirit to flow through each member who is inspired by Him, meeting needs, sending out, and just being Him by the Spirit)

The fourth stage in this process of restoration is absolutely essential or there will NEVER be true and full restoration. We MUST allow Him to "build and to plant" again. There is NO substitute for the actual gathering together in His name - NONE!

The danger is that too many of us are waiting for God to gather us sometime in the future. He IS going to do that, no doubt; but He is able to do it through those who are willing now. There are fears of the past that keep us apart, true enough; but for the most part, it is fleshly freedoms that we feel entitled to once we have been "freed" for a while, that we are not willing to abandon, that prevent us from actually gathering to become His fullness.

There are disciplines in the Spirit that are required for true Spiritual gatherings. There is accountability and responsibility that comes with true oneness. These are the things that are despised by the carnal man. These are the things that prevent our actual maturity into His fullness. For the vast majority, it is because of these that we do not gather again regularly. The fears of the past, and the promise of the future can become excuses that we use to resist the way of the Spirit in this present day - now.

While God is going to build a body and bride without spot or wrinkle in the end, regardless of our failures in permitting Him to do so in the past, we are called to let Him do so NOW. The body's construction and maturity was set forth nearly two thousand years ago, and the fact that this far down the road we have still yet to arrive does NOT give us an excuse to "coast" through the temporal satisfaction of substitutes. (distance communication only)

To gather in His name is NOT a work of the flesh unless it IS of the flesh. All those who want to give themselves to God wholly and completely and to the members of His body within the context of His will and way, may come together anytime and as often as they like - and God will minister to, in, and through each of them in a way that CANNOT be substituted by distance. It is because this is sorely neglected that there are SO MANY sheep still scattered, unattended, confused, misinformed, hurting, unhealthy - you name it.

Oh, precious saints and fellow brothers and sisters in Christ! Let us love and embrace all that He is SO much that we long to be all that He is which can only come by gathering together and submitting to His divine plan, His way!

as we gather,

Mark S. Case
The Father's Field Ministries

The Out of Church Christians

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